The 'G' Word...

[Dartagn]

I guess I'm just not as impressed with our intelligence agencies after they "failed to connect the dots" with that Christmas day bomber when the guys dad calls us up and says "hey my son has been training as a terrorist and called me today saying it would be his last contact with me." After hearing about that kind of thing for awhile, it kind of dispels the whole superhuman persona around American intelligence agencies. Kind of like when you find out santa claus is just your parents tripping around in the dark.

-Ander

The intelligence agencies vs. terrorism and vs. China are two very different things. Although I am sure cyber security is following the trails of terrorists online, this kid didn't exactly have an online persona. Yes, they failed miserably in stopping him (and then failed again in their reaction. Not a single damn thing TSA is doing will protect anyone from an attack.)

The type of things going on between Google and China are the same type of things going on between every country and every other country in the background. That one just made it a little more public. We will never know the crazy shit that is really happening between global internet connections, even between allies.

When the biggest concerns of leadership turns to reading terrorists their miranda rights on the battlefield it's no wonder small details like that fall through the cracks. Our intelligence community has been told they are a bunch of stinking liars and that they do not have the support of top leadership. What can we expect out in the field? I wouldn't want to buy a burger from a company that berates its employees like that much less stake a nations security on it.

I wouldn't say that it is the biggest concern of leadership, but it is A concern. A terrorist attack is a large concern, but human rights violations are too. When we read about the things that terrorists have done to our own soldiers and civilians, we get pissed but leaving men to rot (with no evidence against them) is just as horrible thing to do. If we are to sentence them, it needs to be fairly. Period. I am ashamed of what our government has done to the people it has captured.

[Antilikos]

The intelligence agencies vs. terrorism and vs. China are two very different things. Although I am sure cyber security is following the trails of terrorists online, this kid didn't exactly have an online persona. Yes, they failed miserably in stopping him (and then failed again in their reaction. Not a single damn thing TSA is doing will protect anyone from an attack.)

The type of things going on between Google and China are the same type of things going on between every country and every other country in the background. That one just made it a little more public. We will never know the crazy shit that is really happening between global internet connections, even between allies.



I wouldn't say that it is the biggest concern of leadership, but it is A concern. A terrorist attack is a large concern, but human rights violations are too. When we read about the things that terrorists have done to our own soldiers and civilians, we get pissed but leaving men to rot (with no evidence against them) is just as horrible thing to do. If we are to sentence them, it needs to be fairly. Period. I am ashamed of what our government has done to the people it has captured.

I certainly am ashamed of some of the things I have read about, but the answer to that isn't to bend over. Sure, fix what's wrong, but when you know their rules of engagement say to work our legal system for all its worth its no small wonder they are beating their own heads into cell doors and calling foul. We should use our military tribunals for these people. Its not in our best interests to give them their day in our civilian courts. How many Nazi's did we try in our civilian courts during WWII? I'm sorry, but I just don't see the logic you are using to say our military tribunals are an offense against humanity.

[Dartagn]

I certainly am ashamed of some of the things I have read about, but the answer to that isn't to bend over. Sure, fix what's wrong, but when you know their rules of engagement say to work our legal system for all its worth its no small wonder they are beating their own heads into cell doors and calling foul. We should use our military tribunals for these people. Its not in our best interests to give them their day in our civilian courts. How many Nazi's did we try in our civilian courts during WWII? I'm sorry, but I just don't see the logic you are using to say our military tribunals are an offense against humanity.

The problem is the rules used. They aren't beating their heads into cell doors, they are being tortured with sleep deprivation and starving, beatings, music torture (driven insane, look up Rage Against the Machine and the other artists whose music was used and see how pissed they are).

Then we give them a military tribunal with no lawyer, no charges, and no way to present evidence for themselves. It is against what we believe should be done with any person. Even militants and illegal combatants are supposed to be treated better than that.

These people are getting released everyday, to other countries, to their own countries, because we have NO evidence against them. We held on to these people for years, tortured them, refused them even basic legal counsel and enjoyed all of it then said 'Whoops! Guess we messed up. Have a nice life'. Yeah, that was sure good for the troops out there, piss off our enemies even more. Strengthen their resolve a bit, let them feel like they have a reason to fight our evil.

If the case won't stand up in a fair court, then yes, they should be apologized to and let go. THAT IS OUR LEGAL STANDARD. It is how we treat murderers, sex offenders, felons, everyone. Ever seen a Law and Order episode where the bad guy gets let go? It happens, it sucks, but without that system innocent people would get locked up all the time.

Fuck the government if they cannot find evidence to convict because they thought they could just lock them up and forget about it all. These are people, and they deserve fairness. Period. We should be better than that.

[Somegirl]

No, not the g word Xion's doctors are all too familiar with...

GOVERNMENT!

So... what are your thoughts on the republicans ending the democrats' filibuster-proof reign in the senate?

How big a threat is it to healthcare reform? That a good thing?

Are flu shots a secret government plot to take over the world?

All political thread derails are most welcome here!

[Antilikos]

I absolutely disagree that enemy combatants deserve the same rights as a US citizen. There is no way you can expect to treat them as such and have anything resembling a fair trial result. Sure the terrorists will live another day and be able to start back into the family terror business, but if that's what's desired I just don't understand the intent.

If you are against military tribunals I assume any military court would be suspect in your eyes. I'm not a lawyer, but my common sense says if its good enough for our troops, its good enough for our enemies. Can you imagine letting Natzi's go free due to a lack of battle field evidence during WWII? That is the same rationale you are using here. We should treat them as POW's and the hell with their freedom. It's their bad luck I suppose to choose to fight in a war that will likely never end.

[Beeker]

1. So... what are your thoughts on the republicans ending the democrats' filibuster-proof reign in the senate?

Well since the Dems weren't using it anyway, it shouldn't have any effect whatsoever.

2.How big a threat is it to healthcare reform? That a good thing?

The Dems have been their one biggest threat to healthcare reform. That's a BAD thing.
They need to get in there and get rid of insurance company collusion and allow cross border competition; they need to make sure that "pre-existing conditions" is purged from insurance terminology; they need to get rid of that dumb "doughnut hole" that Medicare D forces seniors and the disabled into; they need to do soooo many things, but most important of all they need to (and here's the BIG laugh) set term limits for the Senate and the House and either give the President a Line Item Veto OR, outlaw the inclusion of special interest pork that bears no relation to an original bill. I could go on for a VERY long time and most isn't even related to the healthcare "reform". They have missed so many GOLDEN opportunities for regulation and/or tweaking of the banking industry and haven't once taken even a nod at any of them.... *gah!* And it's NOT just the Dems... the Republicans are acting like spoiled children and have ever since the election in their stonewalling of the entire legislative process.

3. Are flu shots a secret government plot to take over the world?

Yes, but fortunately our legislators are so bogged down in playing "king of the sandbox" they haven't had time to make any progress on this.

4. All political thread derails are most welcome here!

I like PIE!

[Dartagn]

I absolutely disagree that enemy combatants deserve the same rights as a US citizen. There is no way you can expect to treat them as such and have anything resembling a fair trial result. Sure the terrorists will live another day and be able to start back into the family terror business, but if that's what's desired I just don't understand the intent.

If you are against military tribunals I assume any military court would be suspect in your eyes. I'm not a lawyer, but my common sense says if its good enough for our troops, its good enough for our enemies. Can you imagine letting Natzi's go free due to a lack of battle field evidence during WWII? That is the same rationale you are using here. We should treat them as POW's and the hell with their freedom. It's their bad luck I suppose to choose to fight in a war that will likely never end.

What you are talking about has literally nothing to do with what the military uses as a court system. Have you read about any of this?

The military uses a different set of rules to control troops. It is called the UCMJ, feel free to look up the specifics yourself. Do you not remember that I am ex-military?

We are not proposing to use the UCMJ to convict enemy combatants, we are using NO RULES for them.

Everyone deserves the same rights as a US Citizen, isn't that the point of what we are doing? BRINGING DEMOCRACY?

Read up before you form opinions like this. Wikipedia is a good place to start, check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo ... ice_system

Compare and contrast to the results of Nuremburg:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremburg_ ... main_trial

There are similarities between both, but even the Nazis were given better treatment (although still denied appeal while evidence not normally considered could be presented. Those rules were not necessarily unfair, most of the men could be proved to have done terrible things.)

I have no problem with different rules, I have no problem with convicting terrorists, but MOST OF THESE MEN HAVE NO CONNECTION TO TERRORISM. NONE. NONE CAN BE PROVED. AT. ALL. MANY OF THEM NEVER FOUGHT. THEY WERE PICKED UP AND BROUGHT HERE.

And they have been sitting in prison, without trial or charge, without explanation, without being told when they might be even TRIED. THAT IS BULLSHIT.

Gather evidence, charge them, convict or acquit. That is all. That is fair.

[Dartagn]

No, not the g word Xion's doctors are all too familiar with...

GOVERNMENT!

So... what are your thoughts on the republicans ending the democrats' filibuster-proof reign in the senate?

How big a threat is it to healthcare reform? That a good thing?

Are flu shots a secret government plot to take over the world?

All political thread derails are most welcome here!

1. So... what are your thoughts on the republicans ending the democrats' filibuster-proof reign in the senate?

Well since the Dems weren't using it anyway, it shouldn't have any effect whatsoever.

2.How big a threat is it to healthcare reform? That a good thing?

The Dems have been their one biggest threat to healthcare reform. That's a BAD thing.
They need to get in there and get rid of insurance company collusion and allow cross border competition; they need to make sure that "pre-existing conditions" is purged from insurance terminology; they need to get rid of that dumb "doughnut hole" that Medicare D forces seniors and the disabled into; they need to do soooo many things, but most important of all they need to (and here's the BIG laugh) set term limits for the Senate and the House and either give the President a Line Item Veto OR, outlaw the inclusion of special interest pork that bears no relation to an original bill. I could go on for a VERY long time and most isn't even related to the healthcare "reform". They have missed so many GOLDEN opportunities for regulation and/or tweaking of the banking industry and haven't once taken even a nod at any of them.... *gah!* And it's NOT just the Dems... the Republicans are acting like spoiled children and have ever since the election in their stonewalling of the entire legislative process.

3. Are flu shots a secret government plot to take over the world?

Yes, but fortunately our legislators are so bogged down in playing "king of the sandbox" they haven't had time to make any progress on this.

4. All political thread derails are most welcome here!

I like PIE!

Here are SG and Beekers original posts, I guess moving posts to an existing thread wipes the contents already in the thread? Oops!

[Atelo]

Dart, I think you had to "merge" threads. I've done it before without any problems.

[Dartagn]

Dart, I think you had to "merge" threads. I've done it before without any problems.

I think you are right haha. Whooopsie.